You think Titanium Retainers are the "Shiz y0"? Think again...

Status
Not open for further replies.
P

Protege

Legacy Member
In the spirit of making this board a bit more technical, I decided to link the thread below to point out a very important idea. And that is "Just because it is deemed Performance does NOT mean it will be reliable." We all know that this type of mentality holds true when you buy something cheap (ie. APC, Arospeed, Ractive, etc, etc). Well, here's an expensive product - Ti Retainers. Which ones are suspect? Below talks about Portflow, but Skunk2 and Crower retainers are also suspect. Actually, Skunk2 and Crower are actually of less quality versus Portflow.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=375441&page=1

So, what's the point of going with Ti Retainers? Here's Michael Delaney on the matter:

3 things to remember when it comes to retainer upgrade:

1. do you need to?...really..and be honest (i.e. high prolonged heat and 300 rpm extra on the redline)...this IS a race-only mod...if you hadn't noticed...

2. valvesprings you use with them for the cam is important: coil binding and valve float will beat the sh*t out of any retainer no matter how good...choose the WRONG valvesprings (inner and outer) and you shoot your big toe off....

3. pay attention to how the retainer is seated on install (flat and flush) and that the valvespring installed height is correct.

According to that thread by Chad over at honda-tech, Portflow Ti retainers are 6AL4V aero space quality grade.
I've heard no issues for Portflows by anyone using them over the past 8 years of moderating on various honda boards.

I would nitride coat them even though Tom Fujita says you don't have to simply because you are running a street engine not a race engine...these were meant to be replaced at a shorter interval not for your 60-100,000 mile street engine. Nitriding them will make them go longer up to 60,000 miles and prevent spring galling. I think I stated these last points before but here they are for the record (search) again. I don't use Ti retainers on my street engine...stock ones...with Toda cams and a 9300 rpm redline. I haven't run the engine hot enough to need them...as I do more lapping events in the future, I may decide to switch but I haven't done so to date. TITANIUM IS A SOFTER ALLOY. Why do you think we don't recommend ti valves, rods, and exhausts around here?....
Click to expand...

So, consider this post as a "Caveat Emptor" (Buyer Beware) when it comes to today's Ti Retainers. :)
 
Well, i have the new motor since october. Did about 5000km's with it. And no, i did not check them. I probably will hen i'll get a valve ajustement this spring.

It's a 2001 B20Z (block and head) with crower cams 404's, ti retainers, dual valve springs, comptech header, test pipe, exhaust and a 50-75 shot of NX. It's in a 1992 Integra RS.
 
Originally posted by xxplosif1
Well, i have the new motor since october. Did about 5000km's with it. And no, i did not check them. I probably will hen i'll get a valve ajustement this spring.

It's a 2001 B20Z (block and head) with crower cams 404's, ti retainers, dual valve springs, comptech header, test pipe, exhaust and a 50-75 shot of NX. It's in a 1992 Integra RS.
Click to expand...

Using the Crower Retainers? Anyway, keep us posted on what happens (and be honest ;) ). I'm not going to say "I told you so" if something bad happens (or if the product doesn't meet your expectations).

Only the time will tell us if he's right. I do a lot of km's a year.
Click to expand...

He's not the only one who's been saying this. Quite a few people have been commenting about Titanium-related products for street-use applications. And 5000km in 4 months only relate to 15000km per year (if everything stays constant). That's not a lot. 40000km per year is a lot :D
 
I am using the crower retainers. Don't worry i will be honest but like you said, 5000km's in 4 months, that's not a lot but i have a second car too that i take when there's snow and on the week end. I only take the integra for work. In the summer i do a LOT of km's. We'll see what happen. The father of my girlfriend (the one who built my engine) have been using crower's for years and he is still using their products when he builds race motors and he only has good words for crowers. Difference between imports and domestics products ? Maybe.

Thanks anyway for the tip :bigup:

Btw, how's your plans with the G2 ?
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by xxplosif1
I am using the crower retainers.
Click to expand...

Speaking of Crower retainers, MikeSarrGSR had this to say about them:

crowers and skunk2 retainers both remove material from the roof of the retainer to save weight which is not a structurally sound design. they use a aluminum/titanuim metal. it creates forces that will eventually fatigue near the second tier and separate from the outer valvespring over 15000 miles. portflow uses a aircraft grade Ti for thier retainer with a stock shape (flat on top) that is more beneficial towards being structurally sound. The forces are distributed more evenly across the retainer that way. FYI even then, they also need work done to them like mentioned to maintain a near stock functionality and dependability. Take the crowers out.
Click to expand...


I'm not trying to scare you or anything of that sort. I'm just saying for you to keep a good eye on those retainers. :)
 
Originally posted by xxplosif1
Btw, how's your plans with the G2 ?
Click to expand...

Off Topic: It's been changed. I'm clear now that I want a B18A back again, but this time it will be mated to a B16 tranny. Depending on the engine condition, I might install it, then proceed on finishing my custom exhaust system before rebuilding it. Right now, everything is dependant on me getting a B18A. :)
 
Good stuff for your G2. A close gear ratio tranny would be nice for me too, still running the LS and it's not the best for drag racing.

You're not scaring me with those stories on the net. I take some and leave some. Remember when everybody on the net were talking about how the crower cams breaks? I still have good faith in crower's products even with all these threads on the net. But we never know so i'll keep an eye open next time i take off my valve cover. :)

Are you planning on building your b18a ? Cams? Forged pistons? N/A or turbo?
 
intéressant, cela ammène a réfléchir...

cependant, le fait que le titanium soit un softer alloy n'est pas nécessairement mauvais en soi. Certains métaux ayant une très grande dureté résistent très mal aux chocs, et distortions, alors que d'autres moins résistants, résistent cependant mieux a l'usures.

Par exemple, si le world trade center avait été construit en bois au lieu de poutres de métal, il serait surement encore debout...

Je vais en glisser un mot a mon machiniste aujourd'hui, peut-être pourrais-je en savoir d'avantage...

Je vous tiens au courrant!
 
If titanium retaners is out of the question (I not interrested in poping my valve cover every time I change my oil, yes I would be that paranoïd), what are the other options available.

Lets say, b20z, like xxplosif1's with a SiR or Itr tranny. Good medium-aggressive cams and a aftermarket programable ecu (hondata, aem ems). Supose we want to rev this engine to more or less 8200 rpm.

What spring/retainer combo would be more reliable and still do the job? Do DOHC VTEC springs/retainers fit? Maybe just the DOHC VTEC retainers with aftermarket springs?
 
Originally posted by matt
If titanium retaners is out of the question (I not interrested in poping my valve cover every time I change my oil, yes I would be that paranoïd), what are the other options available.

Lets say, b20z, like xxplosif1's with a SiR or Itr tranny. Good medium-aggressive cams and a aftermarket programable ecu (hondata, aem ems). Supose we want to rev this engine to more or less 8200 rpm.

What spring/retainer combo would be more reliable and still do the job? Do DOHC VTEC springs/retainers fit? Maybe just the DOHC VTEC retainers with aftermarket springs?
Click to expand...

Matt,

In regards to your query, maybe these next few quotes from Michael Delaney will help. Keep in mind the thread is 5 pages long, and you need to register, so I'll just quote what he said. I have highlighted some words in Bold to emphasize a good point.

you don't need to swap the retainers if you don't have to...you have to know WHY you are doing it before you do it. B18B for B18C retainers...WHY? you don't need to. So why are you so eager to? are you in a big hurry to spend money for no reason? Why don't you get ITR injectors while you're at it? (they're the exact same as the LS injectors in case you didn't get the joke).

you guys haven't had to tear an engine down yet I can tell. Wait until you progress to that stage and have to start replacing "race-only" parts you put in a street engine. Race-only parts wear out faster and aren't meant for 60K miles of driving. They are meant for a race weekend and tear down. It's no fun paying for something to be replaced when the stock part was fine in the first place.

when do you need to go to race only parts? when you race. I'm not trying to be smart here but here's a good example: a couple of local guys drove up to a race track called Shannonville up here in Toronto. The usual stuff for fun...10-12 Hondas in a train heading out of the city to an organized day of lapping at the track for fun. We take turns taking the point position on the highway going up and people honk and give us the thumbs up on the way up...lotsa fun. We get to the track and a guy with a CRX and stock brakes, stock brake fluid, stock brake lines does 10 minutes of constant lapping. His rotors are on fire when he enters the pits after being black flagged. His brake pedal is down to the ground. He's lucky he didn't hit any of us or injured himself. That's when a race-only part would help. Be aware that you need to replace them earlier. So for retainers, if you rev at 6000 rpm and above for 10 minutes straight, then yeah, the ti retainers are gonna take the heat better. But man, they get replaced at 30-maybe 40K miles...not 60K-100K like stock ones on a a daily commuter. Stock retainers are fine for auto-X and a normal redline..the retainers only give you an extra 200-300 rpm more BTW from the valvetrain weight savings...that's two-three hundred not thousand...
Click to expand...


why is everyone all of the sudden having such a hard time deciding now whether to get retainers or not?

1. high heat? yes or no?

2. valvetrain weight too heavy for the redline you want and 300 rpm more is needed with the cam powerband you are using? yes or no?

answer yes and you get the Ti retainers.

just inspect them at 20 and 30K miles for replacing.

it used to be everyone would automatically do it without knowing why they are doing it. maybe that's the simpler approach?

lightening the valvetrain places less stress on the rubbing parts and allows you to rev higher but the actual revving higher is controlled at the ECU.

You guys seem to have this chicken or the egg order problem here.


If the valvetrain is lighter from ti retainers, it allows you to rev higher by 300 rpm... you can now set the ECU 300 rpm higher than your usual limit due to valvetrain excessive weight. Set the redline to 8000 rpm and if the valvetrain weight is too heavy, it'll wear more or valvefloat more.

it's not that you set the redline to 8k and then add the retainer. You add the retainer so you can set the ECU to 8K. The order matters.


So if your valvetrain weight is fine and your valvetrain can handle it, don't get the retainer.

I rev to 9300 rpm on stock retainers. I don't run my car in Solo1 events a lot.
Click to expand...

the Ti retainers allow 300 rpm more on the redline if you need 300 rpm more without valvetrain vibration from excessive weight. heavy valvetrains come apart when they are revved too high.

obviously I don't need the loss in weight to allow me to go to 9300 rpm and neither do most people.

the other place the ti retainers benefit is in heat resistance. If you don't have prolonged (> 3 min. constantly above 6000 rpm) high heat situations, then you don't need it.

the hype around these is incredible...people bought them as an afterthought not being critical or skeptical as to why they are getting them...now we teach you why and you are lost...funny...
Click to expand...

Hope that clears things up a bit. :)
 
Originally posted by wankel Type R
intéressant, cela ammène a réfléchir...

cependant, le fait que le titanium soit un softer alloy n'est pas nécessairement mauvais en soi. Certains métaux ayant une très grande dureté résistent très mal aux chocs, et distortions, alors que d'autres moins résistants, résistent cependant mieux a l'usures.

Par exemple, si le world trade center avait été construit en bois au lieu de poutres de métal, il serait surement encore debout...

Je vais en glisser un mot a mon machiniste aujourd'hui, peut-être pourrais-je en savoir d'avantage...

Je vous tiens au courrant!
Click to expand...


Someone care to translate this in English for me, please? :)
 
Originally posted by xxplosif1
Are you planning on building your b18a ? Cams? Forged pistons? N/A or turbo?
Click to expand...

Off Topic: B18A will be stock. I will rebuild it myself as much as I can. Stock CR, stock cams, hopefully stock bore as well (depends of course). The only mods will be the B16 tranny and custom I/H/E. I'm not racing and will no longer do any speeding on the streets for personal reasons. I am trying to shift my powerband down in the low & mid-end range. :)
 
Certains métaux ayant une très grande dureté résistent très mal aux chocs, et distortions, alors que d'autres moins résistants, résistent cependant mieux a l'usures.
Click to expand...

Exact. La dureté et la résilience (résistance aux chocs et à l'usure) sont presque toujours inversement proportionnels...le titanium a effectivement une bonne résilience (particulièrement vu qu'il est plus léger que l'acier) mais du 6Al4V conventionnel est quand même moins résistant qu'un bon acier allié. La dureté n'est pas tellement un facteur ici.
 
Originally posted by Protege_96LX
Someone care to translate this in English for me, please? :)
Click to expand...

"Lightweight/softer aloys, can be a good thing, sometimes they have a better resistance (won't shatter) others who are heavier will resist better to longer use.

Example: If the World trade center wad been made of wood, it most likely would have not crumbled."





O.K., wood is lighter than steel, I don't get it...
 
The reason the WTC fell down is because of that particular steel alloy's inadequate properties at the high temperatures caused by the burning kerosene...not much to do with toughness/brittleness.

BTW my post said that hardness and toughness are always inversely proportionate...titanium has good toughness properties considering its weight, but in absolute terms, steel will always be stronger and thus more appropriate for street-use rotating assemblies and the like.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top