LS/VTEC part 2

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teg92

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How's this for an idea: Do a ghetto LS/VTEC setup for the summer, and then next winter, build the bottom end...

AKA This summer:

Used B16A head
New valvesprings, valveseals
Port the head, get a nice valvejob all by TK of course
All necessary oil line fittings
OBD-I VTEC ECU
GSR Oil Pump
New Timing belt

Next summer:

Endyn high compression rollerwave pistons 0.5mm oversized
Honed cylinders
Eagle Rods
ARP Bolts
GSR block girdle
Balance crank to 9000rpm
B16A/GSR Cable tranny

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This way next summer I will have new toys and some more power, and as long as I don't rev like a moron, I'll make some more power for the time being. Come winter, I rebuild the bottom end and then the following year will have a fully built engine.

Why not do it all at once? $$$$ Why don't I save my money and wait 2 years? I'm IMPATIENT!!!! Let's hear it...
 
i hear ya! lol

Money is often the problem dude :(

but good luck on your project, i'll try and do something without the VTEC head :D
 
Hey by no means have I decided on this... I've convinced myself that this maybe a worthy alternative. I'm not out to say that you don't need vtec to go fast, I don't care how I go fast!! Just think of it this way, for the same money as getting cams, springs & retainers, I could get a vtec head with new itr valvesprings. And all the rest I just apply to vtec instead of nonvtec (porting, chipped ecu, valve seals, plug wires, headers, gears) etc...
 
teg92.. you forgot 1 important thing... how much $$ is it gona cost you to go getto? and do you think your are gona gain anything (hp?) by doing it this way?

ps... only go .20" over with the overbore :)
 
B18b: Good to hear you here on this one...

The cost for doing it ghetto will for sure be the same as doing my LS. I just thought how it'd be dumb to change the oil pump for the initial phase (hard to get to when bottom end is still in car)... Anyway. Here's how the cost works:

*vtec head will be same price as a set of cams
*I need new springs either LS or VTEC, so that's the same (actually cheaper for vtec)
*headwork is the same either way
*valve seals same either way
*ecu the difference is I buy a vtec ecu instead of chipping my LS ecu

Will it make more power? It's got to (at least above vtec x-over). Why? Higher CR, and big fat lobes even bigger than 403's would be. Because of the longer stroke, with a stock bottom end all the dynos I've found show power falling off at 7500rpm anyway, so I'm not missing out on anything by shifting at 7.2 - 7.5k...
 
teg92: you know the guy HXguy on endyn's message board? This guys has an impressive set up.

He runs something like 13.6x and he is NON-VTEC.

I'd rather say that i run 14.5 non vtec than 14.4 vtec....know what i mean? :D
 
I don't think it's ghetto at all. It's a setup that can make a great deal of power. More displacement plus vtec.
The only thing is, that you will have to tear down the motor twice. It would be cheaper to do it all at once. Or slowly when you have the cash: get the head, drop it at TK, buy the rods and cams etc. and when you have all the components, the blow will not be as bad. Just the machining and installation.
 
from what i've heard, he has a skunk2 intake manifold, B20Z, 4-1 header, cat back, intake of course, 404's crower cams + valve springs......nothing more than that! The engine is in a civic coupe HX (us model) Ok, its lighter than a G2 but still....heard he is rebuilding the whole engine and will put endyn's pistons 11.1:1 plus eagle rods or something....cant wait to see the final result.
 
hxguy

Yeah I'm famililar with HX_guy. He just finished rebuilding is engine and yeah he's running all of the above. Anyway I can't really decide whether or not it'd be better to build up the motor in one shot or to do it in two seperate phases!
 
Re: hxguy

well good luck dude! All i have to say is take your time, do what you have to do.....and you'll get there!
HXguy has a f***** nice set up! Very simple, basic, safe and he runs fast times!

My big power gain will be when i'll hit the switch, maybe its the reason why i am not takin the vtec route. I love drag racing but prefer road racing and solo 2 racing...my car is mostly built for that. I'm getting the blue bottle just in case i'm in trouble on the highway ;)
 
Re: hxguy

Well I'm pretty sure you can rev a B18B to 8000 rpm without any problems. The stock cutoff is at 7200 and I'm pretty sure that Honda builds there engines with a margin of safety so I wouldn't be afraid to run a stock B18B to 8000 everyday. Running above that would be taking a chance but the occasional run to 8000 rpm at the track or on the street wont wreck your motor for sure and you'll have more power than a stock B18B for sure but I don't know if you'll have more power than a camed B18B with some nice valve springs and a nice short gear tranny. Don't forget to get the tranny if your going to run vtec or you won't get the performance you should because of those long gears in the LS tranny.
 
Re: hxguy

Mat: Didn't you read my post?!? It's one big powerful flashlight!

Anyway... so the major issue here seems to be nobody knows: Ported, Cammed, Springed LS vs. Ported, Springed VTEC which will be faster below 7500rpm with a stock tranny. Power cuts off at 7500rpm anyway (as seen by this STOCK LSVTEC setup here.
 
Re: hxguy

The vtec car will be more driveable and faster all around. The non vtec car with big cams will pull real hard from about 5000 rpm up, but will not have much juice below that point. Even with adjustable cam gears, you will end up with big cams at low rpm, not always the best thing. A Vtec car will have acceptable punch under vtec cross over and then great power abve that point.

I would go with the vtec set up myself.

matt
 
Re: hxguy

Matt... Im not even gona start this debate again... well are all intitled to our own opinions.. however I wouldnt go as far to say that the vtec will be faster and more divable all around...


Teg 92..Yes it has been a while... getting kinda turned off from this bord.. the BIG PROBLEM I see with the ls/vtec set up is NO ONE has done one yet WITH OUT ANY PROBLEMS!!! on paper they look very good! however in the car and on the track is a very different story! If you decide to go that rute, I wish you all the best ( no burn) and Im 100% positive that Tom, myslef, and many other are willing to help you out with your project... however since your going a rute that hasnt been traveled may times, expect a few bugs...
 
Re: hxguy

Here is another testament to the project:www.rglobal.net/user/jgray/Engines.htm

This is not writen by me but "cut and paste" from the net. It's just another opinion. BELOW

VTEC stands for Variable Valve Timing and Electronic Lift Control. The premise is that at low RPMs and at idle, a less aggressive cam grind is necessary to prevent "loping." Ever hear a pro drag car staging up at the gates? Sounds like it's about to stall. It's because he's running aggressive camshafts, and since the cam is spinning more slowly at idle, the intake valve is still open after combustion has completed. That's what causes loping. At higher RPMs, a more aggressive grind is desirable. The idea is that you want to cram as much air and fuel mixture (A/F) into that combustion chamber as possible, so that when it's ignited you get as grandiose an explosion as possible. So what is good at low RPMs is bad for high RPMs. So what do you do?

If you're Honda, you invent VTEC. What VTEC does is simply to employ different cam grinds at different RPMs. A less aggressive grind at low RPMs for a smooth idle and low to mid range power, and a more aggressive grind up high to produce that high end pop. At a strategically placed "VTEC crossover point," the camshaft switches grind from the less aggressive to the more aggressive.

What determines this point? Hours and hours dyno testing and tuning. If it is set too low, the more aggressive grind will kick in early, bogging down the engine (think "loping" at 3500 RPM). Too high, and the engine is missing out on valuable time it could be spending with the VTEC engaged. So all those fools who spent on a VTEC timer running stock camshafts just so they could get their VTEC to kick in earlier- they're idiots. They just cost themselves a ton of midrange power. The stock crossover point is optimized for stock camshafts.
 
Re: hxguy

So there it is, some info on the subject. I know that there are those who don't like the ls/vtec thing. That's cool. I just wanted to show teg92 what is available.
Thanks guys!
 
Re: hxguy

Hmm...I wonder which graph is more impressive?
The ls/vtec has as much power at the botto end as the non vtec engine and A LOT more power every where else.

Matt

PS: That was my opinion, I am entitled to that right? Just as you are to yours...neither are the absolute end all right answers
 
Re: hxguy

Yeah, thanks for the help guys, but I've already seen those. I've been reading/asking about the many options for 2 years now... I do however love that noTEC graph ;)
 
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