X2, Sans chercher la certification (car c'est extrêmement long à obtenir), tu auras les meilleurs techniques de construction avec le Passivhaus!
Building Science - Building a super efficient home
- Thread starter 250Rocket
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X2, Sans chercher la certification (car c'est extrêmement long à obtenir), tu auras les meilleurs techniques de construction avec le Passivhaus!
newschooler
Legacy Member
Moi c'était plus une question. Je suis ZERO expert la dedant, alors c'est quoi tout les ''contres''? Au pire post les thread ou ta expliquer ca.
Parceque si j'applique ma ptite logique ben nieseuse, me semble qu'un systeme qui fait circuler de l'air dans toute les pieces pour la faire passé par des filtres et un echangeur d'air, c'est pas mal plus clean que de l'air qui circule pas tant que ca avec des calorifere et des thermo murale??? Répartition de la chaleure, temp. égale même au SS? Jvoit pas les contres lol
@cUr@-TL
Legacy Member
Ben explique moi comment tu fais pour chauffer et climatiser une maison par zones, tout en filtrant efficacement l’air ambiant, sans systeme central?
J’suis serieux, j’aimerais savoir!
@cUr@-TL
Legacy Member
I enjoy hvac-related stuff, but I get your point.
However, how much does it cost to build a passive, most energy efficient house? What are the trade offs? Etc.
I truly believe the concept is great, but it cannot be a reality for most people/houses IMO.
Ronin
Legacy Member
It will cost maybe 10-20% more to build and design compared to a similar size house with basic code compliance. The goal of a passive-house is to approach near zero heating and cooling cost. Return on investment in a cold/hot climate like ours is said to be very rapid, 5 to 10years. Other trades offs are of design in nature. No retarded cathedral ceilings, no giant bay windows, you will have to design with your construction site in mind. That being said, I've seen beautiful passive-house designs both single home or multi doors.
It COULD be a reality for all but promoters will loose their shit because pseudo-rich people love McMansions with 15 roof slopes, corners every 6' and useless windows... oh, I think heated garage are not very passive-house friendly either
It will cost maybe 10-20% more to build and design compared to a similar size house with basic code compliance. The goal of a passive-house is to approach near zero heating and cooling cost. Return on investment in a cold/hot climate like ours is said to be very rapid, 5 to 10years. Other trades offs are of design in nature. No retarded cathedral ceilings, no giant bay windows, you will have to design with your construction site in mind. That being said, I've seen beautiful passive-house designs both single home or multi doors.
It COULD be a reality for all but promoters will loose their shit because pseudo-rich people love McMansions with 15 roof slopes, corners every 6' and useless windows... oh, I think heated garage are not very passive-house friendly either
Do you have any examples of Qc passive homes?
Ronin
Legacy Member
It's more popular in Ont and BC, I know there is still a few. I'd have to hit Google to find examples...
MrSpace
Legacy Member
Google it. There is one la.presse + article but the web version doesn't have the pics.
You can see it's not pretty at all
http://plus.lapresse.ca/screens/75e...tm_campaign=Internal+Share&utm_content=Screen
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Ronin
Legacy Member
Petty much...
250Rocket
Well-known member
The all the HVAC guys here, don't disagree with you. HVAC >> ductless for a big house or high loads and it was my first choice. However my conclusion was that it was overkill if you build a super efficient house. You'll barely need to heat or cool so the money spent on the design, installation of all the ducts and so on ends up much more than even the most expensive Ductless solutions.
I was looking at the Mitsubishi MSZ-FH09NA http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/products/indoor-units/wall-mounted/compare.
A SEER of over 30 and it's whisper quiet, just put one on the main floor and one upstairs and you're set to deliver the extra oomph on the coldest and warmest days of the year.
Also one of the biggest things to consider is occupant habits. Some people like to keep the house at like 23C in the winter. Meanwhile my wife and I don't mind colder temps in winter. We actually let it go as low as 17C when it's like -20C outside. People say we're crazy but we don't notice, heck I'm sitting on the couch now in a t-shirt and it's 18C. Add run off heat from cooking and showering temps might go as high as 20C with the heat completely off in our condo (~1200sqft)
I should have started this thread sooner. Finally something I can agree with you on. Basically what I had in mind was something along the lines of this:
Just take out the windows in the roof, that god awful entrance cover and the garage would be pulled forward (2 car garage with doors facing the front side) with very little overlap on the house and nothing above it either. The garage would be super insulated, unheated and quick close, separate garage doors to let as little inside heat out when entering and exiting. When the car heat dissipates it should rewarm the garage.
I was looking at the Mitsubishi MSZ-FH09NA http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/products/indoor-units/wall-mounted/compare.
A SEER of over 30 and it's whisper quiet, just put one on the main floor and one upstairs and you're set to deliver the extra oomph on the coldest and warmest days of the year.
Also one of the biggest things to consider is occupant habits. Some people like to keep the house at like 23C in the winter. Meanwhile my wife and I don't mind colder temps in winter. We actually let it go as low as 17C when it's like -20C outside. People say we're crazy but we don't notice, heck I'm sitting on the couch now in a t-shirt and it's 18C. Add run off heat from cooking and showering temps might go as high as 20C with the heat completely off in our condo (~1200sqft)
It will cost maybe 10-20% more to build and design compared to a similar size house with basic code compliance. The goal of a passive-house is to approach near zero heating and cooling cost. Return on investment in a cold/hot climate like ours is said to be very rapid, 5 to 10years. Other trades offs are of design in nature. No retarded cathedral ceilings, no giant bay windows, you will have to design with your construction site in mind. That being said, I've seen beautiful passive-house designs both single home or multi doors.
It COULD be a reality for all but promoters will loose their shit because pseudo-rich people love McMansions with 15 roof slopes, corners every 6' and useless windows... oh, I think heated garage are not very passive-house friendly either
I should have started this thread sooner. Finally something I can agree with you on. Basically what I had in mind was something along the lines of this:
Just take out the windows in the roof, that god awful entrance cover and the garage would be pulled forward (2 car garage with doors facing the front side) with very little overlap on the house and nothing above it either. The garage would be super insulated, unheated and quick close, separate garage doors to let as little inside heat out when entering and exiting. When the car heat dissipates it should rewarm the garage.
AsunaMAXXX
Legacy Member
^^ as tu un million ?
250Rocket
Well-known member
On a serious note, it will be a bit expensive but there are so many ways to save. Like it was mentioned, the McMansions with weird complex roofs and 10 different depth on a single face of the house are stupidly built and expensive for show purposes only. You can get the same interior space with 4 flat sided walls and a basic triangular roof for a fraction of the cost because the labor component is so much less. Take the picture I posted, if like I said you put the garages on the front side you just saved yourself thousands of $ in paving a path all the way to the back side.
250Rocket
Well-known member
Thanks again guys.
MrSpace, your comment actually lead me to find roller shutters. More specifically insulated roller shutters (IRS). I found IRSes tackle a multiple issues in one package especially for patio doors.
1) Insulation. As soon as the sun goes down in the winter you can shut them and depending on the type you can add an additional R-10 to your windows to prevent heat loss.
2) Eliminate curtains. They give the ultimate privacy + better than any black out curtains. The added bonus is no inside installation, no curtains to get dusty and wash.
3) Security and protection. Crazy storms, kids playing baseball in the backyard or protection from thieves, they protect those expensive windows from being smashed.
I understand the downsides are mechanical failure maintenance costs and bigger up front cost but IMO worth it.
@cur@, you were right about the HRV. For greater Montreal they recommend an HRV but for Quebec city and further north, it is an ERV.
After looking at Passive house, some people are doing it without heatpumps. I was thinking if I can get low enough requirements I can perhaps put in an inline electric heater on the HRV to boost the air temps slightly on the coldest days and avoid the costly heat pump all together. My only worry in summer heat and humidity and how to deal with that if I don't get a heat pump ductless or ducted
OPBX
powaaaa
I love this thread. I kinda regret not to get triple pane window in some of our room when we replaced all windows last summer.
As mentioned before, I would not underestimate the effect of natural light on mood and comfort; not only energy efficiency. To me, windows is making my house/life enjoyable; and super-efficient homes lack.
I think it is worth to weight the investment VS possible return. I am reading that the payback on triple pane window is 10-20 years (But I can’t find actual R rating). The difference on energy consumption will be less if the temperature difference between inside and outside is less (you mentioned you don’t mind being at 17-18 in winter).
I am interested to know why duct system are better than ductless. There are system that can have one exterior unit for multiple interior headunits.
Since HVAC is 2 to 3 time more efficient than regular heating element, it would be a non-sense not to do it. It also greatly affect comfort in summer to lower the temperature & humidity.
As for the rollers, I don’t think we our climate is suited for such application. Snow and ice build might prevent operation, need for lubrication and maintenance, …
As mentioned before, I would not underestimate the effect of natural light on mood and comfort; not only energy efficiency. To me, windows is making my house/life enjoyable; and super-efficient homes lack.
I think it is worth to weight the investment VS possible return. I am reading that the payback on triple pane window is 10-20 years (But I can’t find actual R rating). The difference on energy consumption will be less if the temperature difference between inside and outside is less (you mentioned you don’t mind being at 17-18 in winter).
I am interested to know why duct system are better than ductless. There are system that can have one exterior unit for multiple interior headunits.
Since HVAC is 2 to 3 time more efficient than regular heating element, it would be a non-sense not to do it. It also greatly affect comfort in summer to lower the temperature & humidity.
As for the rollers, I don’t think we our climate is suited for such application. Snow and ice build might prevent operation, need for lubrication and maintenance, …
@cUr@-TL
Legacy Member
I don't mean to hi-jack OPs thread with HVAC stuff, but it all comes down to three main points I would say:
- much better air distribution, obviously
- better air filtration as well
- built-in backup heat, no baseboards needed
I really like ductless units and they can work wonders for what they are, but the comfort provided by a ducted split-system is great. To be able to have the same temperature in each and every room, or to fine tune each room the way you want it, plus great humidity control all over the house, is well worth it to me.
250Rocket
Well-known member
Not at all. Floors open to discuss anything. The goal is both for myself and other to learn about building/renovating the best and most efficient house possible. Discussion on any topic eventually leads to learning about new things. And especially challenge the things I write. I want to hear the devils advocate if there are any points. In that regard I will challenge your last point as it is not exclusive to ducted systems. The Mitsu Mr. Slim I was looking at can heat down to -25C.
Natural light is definitely a must in my books too. Quality triple pane fiberglass framed and thermally insulated windows, no matter the cost are one of the areas I've determined I will not cheap out on but to each their own budget. That said I do recognize that even the best of the best windows will still be the weak point for unwanted heat loss or gain. What I found is that in Germany a roller shutter system is popular to combat this inefficiency. The formula in the end is that you get big windows and that are extra efficiency at the cost of the maintenance and potential mechanical failure of the shutter system. At the very least I would want it for the patio door since it's a wall of glass. There are Canadian companies who build them so I would imagine they're ready to tackle our winters.
250Rocket
Well-known member
Here are the pros that lead me to change from considering central air to ductless.
1) Ease of installation ->Cost. It's really simple to install, even more so on a new construction so for the same money you can get better equipment instead of paying for Joe Blo to be installing ducts
2) Efficiency. Ducts, even insulated will loss heat or cold air, some say up to 20%
3) Space. A unit outside and a few units up on the wall inside. No bulky mechanical systems in the basement. Smaller house possible or more living space in same footprint
4) Sound. Ducts don't always but can carry sound thru the house. Ductless doesn't and a good unit is whisper quiet
The cons.
a) Big house. If you have >2500sqft or you have a lot of twist and turns the air from a head unit might not get around like central
b) Things on the wall. Not everybody likes bricks hanging from the wall. There are hidden ductless alternatives but you sacrifice performance
c) Not as flexible. There are so many "attachments" you can build into the central air. Ductless is whatever the unit has and because you can only have it be so big a full central system can be made much better (at a cost).
Personally the cons don't really apply for my intended build so the pros won me over