Fusillade dans une école au Texas:

CuddlyJen said:
You don't know what the outcome of any change will be... one thing for sure is: NO change = people will keep shooting up schools and other places.

To directly answer your question: If more crimes = less people dead, then I can live with that. 1 psycho running around with a knife will be knocked out alot faster then that same psycho running around with a gun. So yeah, maybe crime rate will go up, but maybe death rate will go down.
Click to expand...

History shows that it doesn't work, that's the problem.
You cant go: Hey lets try again, maybe we will get a different outcome.
A good example that gun control doesn't work is Chicago, its one of the most dangerous cities and one with the most restricted gun ownership in the US.
A gun ban only means less people murdered by guns, but more people murdered in general.
 
Karl55 said:
History shows that it doesn't work, that's the problem.
You cant go: Hey lets try again, maybe we will get a different outcome.
A good example that gun control doesn't work is Chicago, its one of the most dangerous cities and one with the most restricted gun ownership in the US.
A gun ban only means less people murdered by guns, but more people murdered in general.
Click to expand...

Again....mixing "stats" up left and right. Pull out the real numbers of innocent people murdered and gang members murdering each other....then I'll be on board.


Anyways.....its the same debate over and over again everytime....so it's pointless...keep wondering if your kids will get shot at school and then send your thoughts and prayers when they do....No wonder USA is a shit hole.
 
Karl55 said:
You might want to research your point a bit more on gun bans, it doesnt work.
Look at Australia, murders with guns went down but violent crimes and murders with other weapons went way up.
Look at the UK, same situation but now its knives, they even banned the sale of any knife to anyone under 18 and now the mayor of London is trying to prohibit knives in the city because the violent crimes , again, went way up.
Part problem is that the US doesnt have any storage laws like here so you dont have to have your gun unloaded with a trigger/mecanism lock and in a safe because in a lot of states that weapon is expected to be available to defend your house.
No access to a weapon wont make someone thats mentally deranged give up on his/her plan to kill people.
The will take anything else that can hurt... like the family vehicle or any metal tool that his dad owns.
So wanting a police state that has background check on every household item and vehicle that can cause damage is just unreasonable.
You might want that because you get emotionally unstable when you read the news like our prime minister but I dont.
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The difference is that the effectiveness/deadliness of a gun is far higher than a knife.

Given the choice would you rather face down someone with a knife or an AR15 in a school hallway?

You're right restricting someone's access to weapons is unlikely to change their murderous plans, but it might, maybe making other plans will give them enough time to cool down and seek help.

Fact is it's impossible to regulate what goes on in a person's mind, so you either legislate where you can or stop pretending you care about children's lives.
 
CuddlyJen said:
Again....mixing "stats" up left and right. Pull out the real numbers of innocent people murdered and gang members murdering each other....then I'll be on board.


Anyways.....its the same debate over and over again everytime....so it's pointless...keep wondering if your kids will get shot at school and then send your thoughts and prayers when they do....No wonder USA is a shit hole.
Click to expand...

Yeah its the same points over and over again and it wont change because of your feelings.
I just dont want whats happening in another country to change our laws for the worse... oh wait its already happening because we have a wet noodle for a prime minister.
Antis dont make any valid points or arguments and when they try to they spread outright lies and misinformation so thats why im against gun control.
Maybe if the media didnt glorify school shooting it would happen less but thats what get views and views are more important than dead people to them.
Before launching yourself at a debate you might want to look at actual facts and read up on it before going on a little feelings crusade like everyone on social media when this happens.
 
Karl55 said:
So, to be clear, you would rather have more murders and violent crime rates because you're personally scared of guns ?
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I'd like to see a source that jurisdictions that limited gun access saw a rise in the murder rate per capita.
It doesn't seem to be the case in Australia.

http://crimestats.aic.gov.au/NHMP/1_trends/

You also can't just pull figures without controlling for changes in social-economic factors, like rise in poverty, drug usage and gang activity.
 
Spiter_01 said:
The difference is that the effectiveness/deadliness of a gun is far higher than a knife.

Given the choice would you rather face down someone with a knife or an AR15 in a school hallway?
Click to expand...

The problem is that in a situation like this you're not given the choice, I would rather avoid both.
It doesnt even need to be a gun or a knife, you can be walking calmly on a Toronto sidewalk and get hit by someone renting a truck.
It wont change anything, its been tried before and it failed each time, how many times is good enough for you before you realize ?
 
Karl55 said:
The problem is that in a situation like this you're not given the choice, I would rather avoid both.
It doesnt even need to be a gun or a knife, you can be walking calmly on a Toronto sidewalk and get hit by someone renting a truck.
It wont change anything, its been tried before and it failed each time, how many times is good enough for you before you realize ?
Click to expand...

Good job not answering the question, truth is you'd rather deal with the guy with a knife or wtv metalic object he has because you stand a better chance at survival.

Why are you conflating different types of crimes? Are all types of mass murders the same now? Is a drone strike the same as a terrorist driving a truck? Is that the same as a disgruntled teenager shooting his classmates?

There's one very specific type of crime that's well documented and ongoing for decades now and a repeating trend. If I gave you 100/1 odds that there won't be another school shooting for the rest of this calendar year, how much would you be willing to wager?

Yes, people driving their cars into innocent people is a serious problem, but it's not the same problem. Different profile, different motivations, to say they are the same is a very weak argument.
 
I am against banning guns but to compare gun murder to a fkin pool is beyond stupidity lol
That guy must have an iq of a shrimp


Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
 
Spiter_01 said:
Good job not answering the question, truth is you'd rather deal with the guy with a knife or wtv metalic object he has because you stand a better chance at survival.

Why are you conflating different types of crimes? Are all types of mass murders the same now? Is a drone strike the same as a terrorist driving a truck? Is that the same as a disgruntled teenager shooting his classmates?

There's one very specific type of crime that's well documented and ongoing for decades now and a repeating trend. If I gave you 100/1 odds that there won't be another school shooting for the rest of this calendar year, how much would you be willing to wager?

Yes, people driving their cars into innocent people is a serious problem, but it's not the same problem. Different profile, different motivations, to say they are the same is a very weak argument.
Click to expand...

The Toronto guy was white guy who was mad at society and the Texas and Florida kids were similar but younger.
Chance of survival against a knife or gun depends widely on the situation so that point has no ground at all that is why there's no point going down that road.
You're making no sense at all, military action (drone) is now the same as a citizen (not in a war/conflict situation in a region) killing other innocent civilians ?
Im comparing disgruntled people who kill innocents because they are mad against people/society, that's not valid to you ?
 
Le Patriote said:
Sérieux on devrait arrêter d'en parler. C'est comme si tu disais qu'il faisait beau et chaud en Arizona.
Click to expand...

T'as raison, y'a tellement régulièrement de tueries de masse ou attentats terroriste partout sur la planète que quand j'en entends parlé , sur le coup j'me dis TBK un ou d'autres débile, ça a pas d'allure dans le monde ou on vie , 2 sec apres c'est oublié et j'continue ce que je fesais.
C'est triste, mais moi j'en suis rendu la.
 
More and more young girls commiting suicides, boys shooting up schools and the only thing people are talking about are guns. Not a single person ask what led to that morning when these kids woke up and decided to end their lives or others. I have a hard time believing that they just flipped a switch, I believe that there was a long road leading to that morning and more than one hand was stirring that soup of desperation and hate till it boiled over. But I guess it's simpler to blame guns than admitting that there is a growing problem with our society, how we behave towards each other and we keep feeding mind altering meds to those who behave different than expected or not happy about something.
 
CRNKY said:
More and more young girls commiting suicides, boys shooting up schools and the only thing people are talking about are guns. Not a single person ask what led to that morning when these kids woke up and decided to end their lives or others. I have a hard time believing that they just flipped a switch, I believe that there was a long road leading to that morning and more than one hand was stirring that soup of desperation and hate till it boiled over. But I guess it's simpler to blame guns than admitting that there is a growing problem with our society, how we behave towards each other and we keep feeding mind altering meds to those who behave different than expected or not happy about something.
Click to expand...
How would you explain that it's a US specific problem?
 
Spaceman Spiff said:
How would you explain that it's a US specific problem?
Click to expand...

They are the epicenter of the SJW movement, single moms/bad parents and being slaves to the central banks.

See what no SJW LGBTQ2++WTFBBQ fucktard will admit is that you need the parental spectrum that only a mother and father can bring. Instead of having a balanced mother and father you either get a double dose of one gender's traits or even worse you get a "strong and independent" single mother, who without government handouts or alimony would be homeless in a month.

Even if you do have a mother and a father they might have went off the SJW deep end themselves, teaching their children BS about how in life if you don't get what you want it's because of privilege and racism/sexism, basically blame other people for your shortcomings.

Removing even all of those cases we're no longer in the days where dad could work 9-5 in a little to no stress job and support a family of 5. Now a days both parents are work their asses off, sometime 3 or 4 jobs between them, to make ends meet financially and all but the super moms and super dads actually take time to nurture, teach and spend time with their kids instead of just shipping them off to day care or some sport to be babysat by god knows who or even worse, medicating them to calm them down. On a side note ever find it weird that some depression meds have side effects such as suicidal tendencies.

Then don't forget that society burdens our children with the importance of school and that they have to make a $100,000 debt decision about what they want to do with the rest of their life at the age where they really know anything because the "education" they received up until that point, outside of reading, writing and basic math is woefully inadequate for life. This adds more stress to the pressure cooker of teenage hormones and stupidity, then when it pops because we failed them on multiple levels to make them strong independent young adults, we blame guns and focus on the act, consequently giving them their fame, never evaluating the failures that allow the buildup for why these things actually happen.

But every time this happens we return to the insanity of debating the same shit over again.
 
CRNKY said:
More and more young girls commiting suicides, boys shooting up schools and the only thing people are talking about are guns. Not a single person ask what led to that morning when these kids woke up and decided to end their lives or others. I have a hard time believing that they just flipped a switch, I believe that there was a long road leading to that morning and more than one hand was stirring that soup of desperation and hate till it boiled over. But I guess it's simpler to blame guns than admitting that there is a growing problem with our society, how we behave towards each other and we keep feeding mind altering meds to those who behave different than expected or not happy about something.
Click to expand...

Thank you... Finally someone says it.

~42% of American households have owned at least one gun for decades and decades. The numbers barely change.

Take a look at the Wiki page for school shootings in America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
They've been happening for over a century, but look at the massive spike since the 1990's. Not just a spike in casualties, but a spike in people losing their minds, snapping and deciding to take some motherfuckers out. Then we had Columbine, and it became commonplace after that. It's not because kids weren't able to get their hands on a gun before then. It's because American society is sick to the core and has just been spiralling downwards for decades. The American dream began in the 40's and crashed in the 60's because it was always bullshit. But TV/Hollywood has managed to convince Americans and anyone who is watching that it's still alive. Everyone is numbed out on painkillers, anti-depressants or eventually street drugs (opioid "crisis"). Including kids. I don't know how many American kids are on prescription drugs but I'm sure the number is staggering. There's a diagnosis for anyone that doesn't fit the mould. I'm not sure if the link between mass shooters and psychotropic drug prescriptions is legit, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. I'd bet a pretty penny that there's a closer correlation between the rise in mass shootings and anti-depressant prescriptions in the US than there is between shootings and numbers of guns or access to them.

I think most people would agree that there should be certain laws and restrictions/limitations on what types of weapons and ammunition a civilian can own. America's history with guns is a very complex one and it's not even one I feel entitled to really touch. But I know that they've been around much longer than weekly school shootings, so anyone who acts like guns in America are the cause for this are just not thinking logically, or thinking at all really. They're just going in the direction that the news or social media sent them.

Social media is incredibly effective at keeping people distracted by nonsense and fighting each other over issues that aren't even real. The gender thing for example or all the other SJW issues, wage gap, #me too, etc. #kony2012 is another good example of how people will get behind something they know fuckall about, and passionately campaign for that cause, because it's the hype of the moment. It's not like a group of free thinking socially aware individuals campaign to fight these issues that they deem important. It's a group of weak minded sheep that are being sold a bogus crusade and helping tear what's left of this society apart.

Why don't other countries with high gun ownership per capita (Finland, Norway, Saudi Arabia, Canada, etc...) have numbers of mass/school shootings that are anywhere near proportional to the US?

I guess the SJW answer would be to scream "AR-15!" repeatedly.
 
Stirl_ae86 said:
Thank you... Finally someone says it.

~42% of American households have owned at least one gun for decades and decades. The numbers barely change.

Take a look at the Wiki page for school shootings in America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
They've been happening for over a century, but look at the massive spike since the 1990's. Not just a spike in casualties, but a spike in people losing their minds, snapping and deciding to take some motherfuckers out. Then we had Columbine, and it became commonplace after that. It's not because kids weren't able to get their hands on a gun before then. It's because American society is sick to the core and has just been spiralling downwards for decades. The American dream began in the 40's and crashed in the 60's because it was always bullshit. But TV/Hollywood has managed to convince Americans and anyone who is watching that it's still alive. Everyone is numbed out on painkillers, anti-depressants or eventually street drugs (opioid "crisis"). Including kids. I don't know how many American kids are on prescription drugs but I'm sure the number is staggering. There's a diagnosis for anyone that doesn't fit the mould. I'm not sure if the link between mass shooters and psychotropic drug prescriptions is legit, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. I'd bet a pretty penny that there's a closer correlation between the rise in mass shootings and anti-depressant prescriptions in the US than there is between shootings and numbers of guns or access to them.

I think most people would agree that there should be certain laws and restrictions/limitations on what types of weapons and ammunition a civilian can own. America's history with guns is a very complex one and it's not even one I feel entitled to really touch. But I know that they've been around much longer than weekly school shootings, so anyone who acts like guns in America are the cause for this are just not thinking logically, or thinking at all really. They're just going in the direction that the news or social media sent them.

Social media is incredibly effective at keeping people distracted by nonsense and fighting each other over issues that aren't even real. The gender thing for example or all the other SJW issues, wage gap, #me too, etc. #kony2012 is another good example of how people will get behind something they know fuckall about, and passionately campaign for that cause, because it's the hype of the moment. It's not like a group of free thinking socially aware individuals campaign to fight these issues that they deem important. It's a group of weak minded sheep that are being sold a bogus crusade and helping tear what's left of this society apart.

Why don't other countries with high gun ownership per capita (Finland, Norway, Saudi Arabia, Canada, etc...) have numbers of mass/school shootings that are anywhere near proportional to the US?

I guess the SJW answer would be to scream "AR-15!" repeatedly.
Click to expand...

Lolll looking at people trying to blame anything but guns is so entertaining haha, it's like watching figure skating but funnier...

The number of guns haven't changed? Lol there was literally more than twice as many guns per capita in the states between the 60's and now, but yeah probably has nothing to do with this. Did you even check the regulations for all the other countries you specified lol? Not to mention that these countries you mentioned barely reach HALF of the states' guns per capita, it's simply not even close to the problem in the states. When you can say that Saudi Arabia, a place where you can buy illegal guns and register them LEGALLY, barely has 30% of the state's guns per capita, it gives an idea of how ridiculous the problem is.

But yeah, the fact that the united states is the only country in the world with such a problem doesn't have NOTHING to do with the fact that the united states alone owns 50% of the civilian-owned guns worldwide lol. It's also a pure coincidence that they outclass any country in the world in terms of guns per capita by a minimum of 100% more.

Anyway lol arguing about this is pointless, I will stick with the idea that the states might just have more "sad people", and while they will keep getting more and more guns, I will sit here and wait to see how they will manage to make these sad people happy in order to fix the problem :)
 
*VR6* said:
Lolll looking at people trying to blame anything but guns is so entertaining haha, it's like watching figure skating but funnier...

The number of guns haven't changed? Lol there was literally more than twice as many guns per capita in the states between the 60's and now, but yeah probably has nothing to do with this. Did you even check the regulations for all the other countries you specified lol? Not to mention that these countries you mentioned barely reach HALF of the states' guns per capita, it's simply not even close to the problem in the states. When you can say that Saudi Arabia, a place where you can buy illegal guns and register them LEGALLY, barely has 30% of the state's guns per capita, it gives an idea of how ridiculous the problem is.

But yeah, the fact that the united states is the only country in the world with such a problem doesn't have NOTHING to do with the fact that the united states alone owns 50% of the civilian-owned guns worldwide lol. It's also a pure coincidence that they outclass any country in the world in terms of guns per capita by a minimum of 100% more.

Anyway lol arguing about this is pointless, I will stick with the idea that the states might just have more "sad people", and while they will keep getting more and more guns, I will sit here and wait to see how they will manage to make these sad people happy in order to fix the problem :)
Click to expand...

C'est quand même un phénomène beaucoup plus complexe qui peut pas se résumer uniquement avec le blâme sur les armes, sur les médicaments ou sur le bullying.

C'est un mix de plein d'affaires je crois, et individuellement personne va suivre le même pattern et le même parcours de vie avant d'en arriver au jour que tu te lèves le matin et que tu rentres dans une école avec une arme.

Je pourrais vivre toute ma vie dans une maison avec des centaines d'armes accrochées sur chaque mur, jamais je déciderais de tirer sur des gens. Et statistiquement, aux États Unis, malgré la disponibilité relativement facile des armes, la très grande majorité des propriétaires feront jamais de crimes avec. En partant, je suis persuadé que n'importe quelle personne qui décide de faire un geste comme ça souffre de problèmes mentaux. Personne de normal tue d'autres gens c'est incensé.

Culturellement, le besoin d'avoir une arme à feu pour se défendre et leur mauvais entreposage fait qu'au USA, un enfant qui pète un plomb pour de multiples raisons (troubles de santé mentale, bullying répété...) va avoir accès facilement à des armes non verrouillées chez lui.

Mais encore une fois, blâmer les armes et seulement les armes c'est hypocrite parce que bien qu'elle fassent partie du problème des tueries de masse, elles sont pas en elle-même un élément déclancheur mais un facilitateur. Je suis d'acord que leur règlementation devrait être renforcie au sujet des permis de possession et sur l'entreposage, mais c'est pas ça qui règlerait tous les problèmes que nos voisins ont.
 
Stirl_ae86 said:
Thank you... Finally someone says it.

~42% of American households have owned at least one gun for decades and decades. The numbers barely change.

Take a look at the Wiki page for school shootings in America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
They've been happening for over a century, but look at the massive spike since the 1990's. Not just a spike in casualties, but a spike in people losing their minds, snapping and deciding to take some motherfuckers out. Then we had Columbine, and it became commonplace after that. It's not because kids weren't able to get their hands on a gun before then. It's because American society is sick to the core and has just been spiralling downwards for decades. The American dream began in the 40's and crashed in the 60's because it was always bullshit. But TV/Hollywood has managed to convince Americans and anyone who is watching that it's still alive. Everyone is numbed out on painkillers, anti-depressants or eventually street drugs (opioid "crisis"). Including kids. I don't know how many American kids are on prescription drugs but I'm sure the number is staggering. There's a diagnosis for anyone that doesn't fit the mould. I'm not sure if the link between mass shooters and psychotropic drug prescriptions is legit, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. I'd bet a pretty penny that there's a closer correlation between the rise in mass shootings and anti-depressant prescriptions in the US than there is between shootings and numbers of guns or access to them.

I think most people would agree that there should be certain laws and restrictions/limitations on what types of weapons and ammunition a civilian can own. America's history with guns is a very complex one and it's not even one I feel entitled to really touch. But I know that they've been around much longer than weekly school shootings, so anyone who acts like guns in America are the cause for this are just not thinking logically, or thinking at all really. They're just going in the direction that the news or social media sent them.

Social media is incredibly effective at keeping people distracted by nonsense and fighting each other over issues that aren't even real. The gender thing for example or all the other SJW issues, wage gap, #me too, etc. #kony2012 is another good example of how people will get behind something they know fuckall about, and passionately campaign for that cause, because it's the hype of the moment. It's not like a group of free thinking socially aware individuals campaign to fight these issues that they deem important. It's a group of weak minded sheep that are being sold a bogus crusade and helping tear what's left of this society apart.

Why don't other countries with high gun ownership per capita (Finland, Norway, Saudi Arabia, Canada, etc...) have numbers of mass/school shootings that are anywhere near proportional to the US?

I guess the SJW answer would be to scream "AR-15!" repeatedly.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with anything you've said, there's a toxic underlying/consumerist culture that's been brewing for a long time. I've been saying it myself that the rise of social media has been a huge issue in the unhappiness of recent generations, combined with broken homes and inadequate social structure leads to problematic outcomes.

But none of that is specific to the US except maybe the overmedication of their children. Yet nowhere on earth is there a school shooting phenomeon that even remotely approaches the one in the US.

You know what else Social Media and online forums are good at? (including MR) missrepresenting the scale of these issues. Again everyone is paying attention to the vocal extremes, but no one cares about the rational middle ground. Banning guns is as retarded as arming every teacher. But is requiring a 24-48h waiting period on your first gun purchase so outrageous? Is it crazy for them to have an actual national database that's updated and accurate?

Everyone keeps saying oh we're not dealing with the underlying problems, absolutely true, but what makes you believe that the government is in any way more competent in dealing with mental health issues, poor parenting etc.? These are problems that are a magnitude more difficult to detect and deal with it.

People are screaming bloody murder that the government is infringing on their rights to have guns, what's the reaction going to be when they'll start telling them how to raise their children?
 
*VR6* said:
Lolll looking at people trying to blame anything but guns is so entertaining haha, it's like watching figure skating but funnier...

The number of guns haven't changed? Lol there was literally more than twice as many guns per capita in the states between the 60's and now, but yeah probably has nothing to do with this. Did you even check the regulations for all the other countries you specified lol? Not to mention that these countries you mentioned barely reach HALF of the states' guns per capita, it's simply not even close to the problem in the states. When you can say that Saudi Arabia, a place where you can buy illegal guns and register them LEGALLY, barely has 30% of the state's guns per capita, it gives an idea of how ridiculous the problem is.

But yeah, the fact that the united states is the only country in the world with such a problem doesn't have NOTHING to do with the fact that the united states alone owns 50% of the civilian-owned guns worldwide lol. It's also a pure coincidence that they outclass any country in the world in terms of guns per capita by a minimum of 100% more.

Anyway lol arguing about this is pointless, I will stick with the idea that the states might just have more "sad people", and while they will keep getting more and more guns, I will sit here and wait to see how they will manage to make these sad people happy in order to fix the problem :)
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly the increase in the numbers of guns is largely attributable to "hardcore" gun owners, some people are just gun fanactics and will have hundreds of guns. Like an incredibly small percentage of gun owners own the majority of total (legal guns).

If I'm not mistaken the percentage of households that own guns has also dropped several percentage points, I think the explanation being that the % of white men that own a gun has stayed constant (while minorities generally have lower gun ownership rates) since the growth of the latter group has outpaced the former, thus the decreasing % of households with guns.
 
Spiter_01 said:
If I'm not mistaken the percentage of households that own guns has also dropped several percentage points, I think the explanation being that the % of white men that own a gun has stayed constant (while minorities generally have lower gun ownership rates) since the growth of the latter group has outpaced the former, thus the decreasing % of households with guns.
Click to expand...

Sure, we could just as easily chalk it up to more people living in urban areas owning less firearms for recreational purposes, but let's turn this into a race thing instead.
 
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