The future of Stg 2 and up may be in jeopardy

maxpat82 said:
reste qui a rien qui les empeche d'amélioré les tune tout en conservant les emission comme stock. (ou dans le range émis par les autorités)

ca veut dire arrêté de prendre la voie facile d'enlever le catalyseur...qui est pas vraiment un probleme en soit...
c'est comme enlever un silencieux pour gagné de la performance.....c'est pas du 1 pour 1 et tu fais cher toute la population autour de toi quand tu le fais.

Y a moyen d'Avoir de la performance sans pitché toutes les normes d'émissions environnementale par la fenetre en partant.
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i kinda agree with that.

It's not the end of the tunes, it's the end of tunes that removes stock emission control equipments.

but on the other hand, emission equipments are getting so out of control, most performance cars now need to come with petrol particulate filters to meet emissions, which increases medium to long term maintenance costs, weight and reduce the overall audio experience... Considering sports car are most likely a very small portion of global emissions, I kinda think it's a pity...
 
D'un autre côté, la programmation d'une voiture financée et garantie en sachant que tu perds ta garantie c'est un peu se tirer dans le pied avec une 12 à mon point de vue.

Il va rester les projets et les voitures non-DD, que la plupart du monde vont quand même modifier, mais avec une tune ''unique'' pour chaque application. Je crois quand même qu'il y a moyen de modifier une voiture en la gardant ''propre''. L'exemple parfait ce sont toutes les gammes de performances de AUDI, BMW et M-B. Personne peut dire qu'une RS3, RS5 ou RS6 n'est pas performante alors que ça rencontre les normes environnementales.

C'est rire du monde. VW a peut-être tout débuté ça, suivi des diesel brothers.
 
exact les manufacturier sont capable de construire des version "performante" de chacun de leur vehicule tout en restant dans les normes.....pourquoi tout les tuner prenne des raccourci et facilité pour ne jamais rencontrer cest meme norme.....ca en est ridicule.
 
maxpat82 said:
exact les manufacturier sont capable de construire des version "performante" de chacun de leur vehicule tout en restant dans les normes.....pourquoi tout les tuner prenne des raccourci et facilité pour ne jamais rencontrer cest meme norme.....ca en est ridicule.
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I feel like the idea of the different stages of "tune packages" is lost. Yes most tuners offer stage 1 tunes that retain the stock hardware. This isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about stage 2 and on up. I feel like you are blurring the lines, expecting tuner companies to create stage 2 level of performance with the stock equipment... which just isn't going to happen.
 
The real question : how many people doing stage 2 or more tunes, for their DD and dramatically affect the environment ?????
And most people on forums will run high flow catalytic converters anyway.


I don't say its a bad thing, but they should ban remote start wayyyyy before tunes (cold start idle on a cold catalytic converter). 99.9% of the use is for a subjective sweet ass comfort, because people can't stand -10°C for few minutes... worst they leave the car running for 15 minutes and even if its +15°C outside. (no, oil dont need to raise in the head for 5 min, its not how it works, and we are not in 1970. And please with young kids, they should be dress according to the outside temp in a case of accident, and hello petitcoulou)
 
maxpat82 said:
reste qui a rien qui les empeche d'amélioré les tune tout en conservant les emission comme stock. (ou dans le range émis par les autorités)

ca veut dire arrêté de prendre la voie facile d'enlever le catalyseur...qui est pas vraiment un probleme en soit...
c'est comme enlever un silencieux pour gagné de la performance.....c'est pas du 1 pour 1 et tu fais cher toute la population autour de toi quand tu le fais.

Y a moyen d'Avoir de la performance sans pitché toutes les normes d'émissions environnementale par la fenetre en partant.
Click to expand...

L'affaire c'est que tu peut être Stage 2 comme moi avec un catalyseur, de ce que j'en comprend, ça aussi ca va être interdit ? Même avec un catalyseur aftermarket ?
 
Les catalyseurs aftermarket ça passe pas les normes antipollution. High flow cat sur tune oem = check engine assurer pour catalyseur efficiency below threshold
 
maxpat82 said:
exact les manufacturier sont capable de construire des version "performante" de chacun de leur vehicule tout en restant dans les normes.....pourquoi tout les tuner prenne des raccourci et facilité pour ne jamais rencontrer cest meme norme.....ca en est ridicule.
Click to expand...

Les manufacturiers mettent des millions en R&D pour sortir le plus de performance en squeezant le plus possible ce qui est permis selon les normes, le char sort de l'usine et il est déjà complètement optimisé/accoté niveau norme, pas mal certain que tu pourras pas tuner ton char en gardant la mécanique stock et toujours rester dans les normes.
 
*VR6* said:
Les manufacturiers mettent des millions en R&D pour sortir le plus de performance en squeezant le plus possible ce qui est permis selon les normes, le char sort de l'usine et il est déjà complètement optimisé/accoté niveau norme, pas mal certain que tu pourras pas tuner ton char en gardant la mécanique stock et toujours rester dans les normes.
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Théoriquement Oui, mais dans les faits c'est dépendant du modèle / marché / priorités du fabricant.

La version JDM de mon moteur sort presque 30hp / 40ft.lb de torque de plus avec les mêmes composants (+ une cvt) Le carburant / les normes sont p-e un peu différente vs l'amérique mais c'est pas exactement le laisser faire complet non plus au japon. En Amérique du nord, il est nerfed dans le upper rev range pour donner de la place au modèle supérieur. Le monde ne paieraient pas $8000 de plus pour une différence sur papier de 10hp. J'en conclus que l'effort d'optimisation varie en fonction du segment / trim level.

C'est un peu comme la BMW supra qui a sorti 50hp de leur chapeau avec des changements mécaniques minimes en 2020 et 2021. Ils avaient laissé de la marge sur la table en 2020, c'est certain. Même aujourdhui, le B58 va probablement plafonné autour de ce output parce qu'il faut laisser de la place en haut pour le s58 dans d'autres produits flagship.

On encore avec les taxes européenne sur le CO2 au g/km. Tu peux respecter les normes et rester "légal" avec plus d'émissions, mais ils vont privilegier le co2 le plus bas possible sur pratiquement tout sauf les modeles super haute perfo pour ne pas risquer de perdre des ventes aux écotaxes.

J'ai l'impressionque plus ça avance, plus y'a de compromis que l'uttilisateur final se doit d'accepter a moins d'y aller, a grand cout, pour "l'ultime" version du produit avec les lettres de noblesses du fabricant en question (S/M/AMG et cie)
 
*VR6* said:
Les manufacturiers mettent des millions en R&D pour sortir le plus de performance en squeezant le plus possible ce qui est permis selon les normes, le char sort de l'usine et il est déjà complètement optimisé/accoté niveau norme, pas mal certain que tu pourras pas tuner ton char en gardant la mécanique stock et toujours rester dans les normes.
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Il y a aussi le facteur durabilité qui entre en jeux. Ford se permet même de vendre des reflash d’ecu «*50 states legal*» tout en gardant la garantie via Ford Performance Parts ou Mountune USA.
 
Just keep the cats on your car, it gives fuckall performance and makes you look like a knob. What gives you the right to pollute the environment more than other people ?

Lots of modified cars here in Germany, but it's done the right way: correct parts with TUV approval / inspection once you've fitted them, no garbage chineese shit. I wouldn't say Germany is lacking in the "modified" car scene, lots of M3's, 911's and Golf GTI's with aftermarket parts, but just done right.
 
How large of a catted downpipe do you need to replace a cat-less tube to compensate for the added back pressure ?
 
oldschoolZ said:
Just keep the cats on your car, it gives fuckall performance and makes you look like a knob. What gives you the right to pollute the environment more than other people ?

Lots of modified cars here in Germany, but it's done the right way: correct parts with TUV approval / inspection once you've fitted them, no garbage chineese shit. I wouldn't say Germany is lacking in the "modified" car scene, lots of M3's, 911's and Golf GTI's with aftermarket parts, but just done right.
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What gives a person the right to pollute more? Good question. We should probably ask AMG G wagen owners for their thoughts on the topic.

A 2020 G63 emits 3x more CO2 than a 2020 GTI. 343 g/km vs 144 on the WLTP cycle. We could probably ask the same of "50 states / california legal" supercharged F-150s or even raptors owners in a north american context.

Pay enough money and do whatever the fuck you want seems to be the way we've done things. Seeing as America is doing so little on the emissions perspective, to go after tuners seems a bit misguided.

From that perspective, I can't exactly bring myself to lose my mind over APR selling aftermarket downpipes with aftermarket high flow cats or people running non factory tunes. (good riddance to the catless options though)

I agree that modern emission devices can be so good that they're not usually an obstacle. People are supercharging european mustangs with the Gasoline Particulate filters and are still making upwards of 600hp. Would I lose sleep if someone was to remove the GPF and "roll it back" to Cats only? In small numbers? Nah.

We're a long ways from the Gas crisis days that gave converters a bad rap. I don't think they should be removed.

Besides, Isn't the german scene mostly axlebacks, fancy wheels and coilovers? That was sort of the impression I got from the episode of Mighty Car mods where they go to Germany and mod a mk4 GTI.
 
kahos said:
What gives a person the right to pollute more? Good question. We should probably ask AMG G wagen owners for their thoughts on the topic.

A 2020 G63 emits 3x more CO2 than a 2020 GTI. 343 g/km vs 144 on the WLTP cycle. We could probably ask the same of "50 states / california legal" supercharged F-150s or even raptors owners in a north american context.

Pay enough money and do whatever the fuck you want seems to be the way we've done things. Seeing as America is doing so little on the emissions perspective, to go after tuners seems a bit misguided.

From that perspective, I can't exactly bring myself to lose my mind over APR selling aftermarket downpipes with aftermarket high flow cats or people running non factory tunes. (good riddance to the catless options though)

I agree that modern emission devices can be so good that they're not usually an obstacle. People are supercharging european mustangs with the Gasoline Particulate filters and are still making upwards of 600hp. Would I lose sleep if someone was to remove the GPF and "roll it back" to Cats only? In small numbers? Nah.

We're a long ways from the Gas crisis days that gave converters a bad rap. I don't think they should be removed.

Besides, Isn't the german scene mostly axlebacks, fancy wheels and coilovers? That was sort of the impression I got from the episode of Mighty Car mods where they go to Germany and mod a mk4 GTI.
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In the EU/UK you pay for more for having a car that that pollutes more. Driving is too cheap in NA and in the USA you get people "it's my God given right"

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk
 
Gregster said:
In the EU/UK you pay for more for having a car that that pollutes more. Driving is too cheap in NA and in the USA you get people "it's my God given right"

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk
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Yes, a tax on CO2 is fairly reasonable policy all things considered. Consumers / Manufacturers won't agree to spend more money (R&D, tech, lightweight materials) to pollute less of their own accord. Nudging people that don't care about cars / driving towards something more efficient is good policy. Thus the carrot and stick approach. They're quite aggressive as I recall. I think France offers subsidy to large families so they can afford a family sized vehicle. Most north-american spec vehicles would get taxed into oblivion.

If it wasn't for the tiered "pay more to pollute dis-proportionally approach" I'd say the EU has a certain level of legitimacy to tighten up their oversight beyond new vehicle sales. That's something I find lacking in the U.S by comparison.

I'd just hate to see this turn into an "OEM or die" approach to ECUs and an excuse to lock everything down beyond the reach of enthusiasts. Killing an entire industry on a whim probably isn't what our economy needs the most right now.
 
kahos said:
Yes, a tax on CO2 is fairly reasonable policy all things considered. Consumers / Manufacturers won't agree to spend more money (R&D, tech, lightweight materials) to pollute less of their own accord. Nudging people that don't care about cars / driving towards something more efficient is good policy. Thus the carrot and stick approach. They're quite aggressive as I recall. I think France offers subsidy to large families so they can afford a family sized vehicle. Most north-american spec vehicles would get taxed into oblivion.

If it wasn't for the tiered "pay more to pollute dis-proportionally approach" I'd say the EU has a certain level of legitimacy to tighten up their oversight beyond new vehicle sales. That's something I find lacking in the U.S by comparison.

I'd just hate to see this turn into an "OEM or die" approach to ECUs and an excuse to lock everything down beyond the reach of enthusiasts. Killing an entire industry on a whim probably isn't what our economy needs the most right now.
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OEM ECU tech is pretty outdated and slow to change. It's fairy easy to crack on most popular cars or worst case add a piggy back like JB4. Car Tech compared to consumer electronics is massively outdated by the time it hits the showroom floor.

Sent from my EML-L09 using Tapatalk
 
kahos said:
What gives a person the right to pollute more? Good question. We should probably ask AMG G wagen owners for their thoughts on the topic.

A 2020 G63 emits 3x more CO2 than a 2020 GTI. 343 g/km vs 144 on the WLTP cycle. We could probably ask the same of "50 states / california legal" supercharged F-150s or even raptors owners in a north american context.

Pay enough money and do whatever the fuck you want seems to be the way we've done things. Seeing as America is doing so little on the emissions perspective, to go after tuners seems a bit misguided.

From that perspective, I can't exactly bring myself to lose my mind over APR selling aftermarket downpipes with aftermarket high flow cats or people running non factory tunes. (good riddance to the catless options though)

I agree that modern emission devices can be so good that they're not usually an obstacle. People are supercharging european mustangs with the Gasoline Particulate filters and are still making upwards of 600hp. Would I lose sleep if someone was to remove the GPF and "roll it back" to Cats only? In small numbers? Nah.

We're a long ways from the Gas crisis days that gave converters a bad rap. I don't think they should be removed.

Besides, Isn't the german scene mostly axlebacks, fancy wheels and coilovers? That was sort of the impression I got from the episode of Mighty Car mods where they go to Germany and mod a mk4 GTI.
Click to expand...

True, don't know the answer to the "rights to pollute" question.

Should be taxed on emissions, it's the most sensible metric as it ties in the efficiency of your car and the fuel consumption. More fuel, more CO2.

The tuning industry in Germany is actually the same as any other country in the world: wheels, reflashes, suspension and exhausts. No one does engine swaps anymore these days, unless you own an older car. You can supercharge / do engine swaps here too, just has to respect emissions and pass the inspection, it's easily possible with the correct parts.

But removing emissions control stuff, come on, it's a bit stupid for the extra performance it will give you.
 
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